The Mormons Are Right!

In my last post I posted a comment from Mike in which he took issue with my statement that Mormons are not Christian. Mike stated that any group who claims to be and believes themselves to be Christian should be considered as such. I of course respectfully disagree.

Heaven will at the last day be filled with a whole group of folks that Lutherans disagree with. There will be Methodists, Baptists, and maybe even an Episcopalian or two if they haven’t followed for what pass for leadership in that nearly apostate church body. Heck, there might even be nondenominational or two or three if they hadn’t bought what passes for vapid preaching that has members looking to fulfilling their “purpose” by looking to works instead of unmerited grace not unlike the Roman church they all love to criticize even though the two merit based theological systems mirror each other perfectly.

Lutherans, boy howdy, are Lutherans ever in for a surprise at the eschaton or the last day when they bump into people who for some odd reason never liked singing Gerhardt hymns during Lent. Oh the horror! Heaven will not as we would want it and thank God for that as our imaginations, wants, and desires are as sinful and corrupt as they can be.

One thing is certain for all of Christendom concerning heaven; there won’t be a single Mormon at the party. Think I’m being judgmental? Just ask a Mormon if there will be a single Trinitarian believing, ecumenical creed confessing, and historic hymn singing soul in their corner of the afterlife. If they have been properly taught at the ward, stake, and temple then they have no choice but to say that they will be the only ones rewarded properly for what they believe teach and confess. And on this point they are more correct than they know.

As Mike should know, being a former Mormon himself, that Mormons teach that those outside of the Mormon faith believe in a “mythical Christ” as is clearly taught in Mormon Doctrine, 269. In the book Mormonism 101 (one of the finest resources on the largest of the made in America religions) the authors site former president Gordon Hinkley as responding to those who claimed that Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ as saying “No, we don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”

Want more?

The Mormons teach that the conception of Jesus was in a natural manner as every other man. In other words, God the father conceived His son by lying with Mary. Mary didn’t have sexual relations with a mortal man but rather was impregnated by the God the Father the same way any human is conceived. Christians teach that Christ was not created in such a manner but was begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.

The Mormon’s teach that Jesus had a brother whereas Christians teach that Jesus has no brother.

The Mormon’s teach that Jesus reached perfection after His resurrection whereas Christians teach the Jesus was always God and was always perfect.

The Jesus of the Mormon’s faith is a very different Jesus than the historical Jesus confessed by the church catholic. That’s why I’m with the Mormons when I say that I agree with them one hundred percent; their Jesus is not our Jesus.

Hmm, who knew it be so easy to come to an agreement with he sons of Kolob?

And Today’s Angry Email Is From…

I get all sorts of angry email from folks taking me to task for everything from my insistence that hymnody solidly confess the faith and not sound like a love song to Jesus to my making crazy statements like we shouldn’t even try to separate the mission from the message so as to be more seeker sensitive to unchurched peoples.

When I get angry emails or comments I always try to be as nice as possible with folks and presume that some of the anger is from people who haven’t read POTF before and that maybe some of that anger is just confusion from walking into the middle of a much larger debate. I think I do a pretty fair job at engaging people who are critical of what I write in a respectful way.

I certainly don’t delete comments because I disagree with people. I can count on one hand the four people I’ve had to delete comments from. Each time the eighth commandment was involved and I just don’t tolerate character assassination (even if the charge is true) here at POTF. I’ve always allowed people to disagree with me either in the comments of a post or by an email address which has been public for as long as this blog has been up.

A bit ago I received the following in the inbox:

Hi Im Mike. As I sit here watching BSG and reading your rant I had a thought. Being an ex mormon and not the biggest supporter of much anything Christian Im surprised that I take a bit of offense to this rant. The Mormons are Christian. Any religion that believes in Christ is. And just as hypocritical as the rest of you. I know youll hate this but im going to suggest anyway. Listen to We~re From America by Marilyn Manson. Forget your judgements, as that is Gods job NOT YOURS. Just listen to what the man is saying. Then reflect on the country and world that corruption, the moral majority, and all forms of religion has built for us to live in. The word of God isnt the problem. The word in the hands of man is. I welcome your cmmnt at __________@yahoo.com

You know what I like about this comment? The author was man enough to sign his name! I don’t get that a lot from people that disagree with me. So, I sent Mike a short note which started out this way:

Hi Mike,

Thank you for leaving your recent comment at Putting Out The Fire. While I strongly disagree with you premise that anyone who believes in Jesus are Christian, I do applaud you for your willingness to engage me in a conversation. There are a goodly number of individuals who disagree with me who leave anonymous comments that make declarative statements and either fail to back up their argument with facts (verifiable or otherwise) or that are little more than hate filled diatribes.

I went on to ask Mike if he wouldn’t mind engaging me in a conversation and was hoping that he could provide insight as a former member of the Mormon church. I stated that the subject of the post would really center on who exactly is Christian, how can know who is Christian, and are there means to state that there are people who claim to be Christian but might not be.

Sadly, Mike never responded back. And that’s a darned shame.

Homework: “Image Composition”

Finally, here’s my completed homework project “Image Composition” given to me by Dan over at Necessary Roughness explaining how I composed/manufactured a picture of Tom Monson declaring that he’s not a cylon. The first portion of my homework assignment can be found here.

Hope ya’ll enjoy it in spite of the poor sound quality!

Something that I forgot to include is that the text in the crawler along the bottom of the fake screenshot is a shout out to a commenter, Saxoniea, who requested that I place President Tom Monson in the raised seat of the Imperious Leader of the old Battlestar Galactica series. I couldn’t do that because I couldn’t find a picture with a high enough resolution to match up with the pictures I had of Monson and a fuzzy pixilated picture wasn’t what I was going for. So, I put the shout out into the crawl and let everyone know that “judge” Frank couldn’t find any evidence of a high quality picture so the idea was shot down

The fake screenshot in the video can be found in it's original post here along with the accompanying fake press release.

Lunch Delayed

A programming note; my lunch with the Mormons had to be delayed because my workload this week was busier than it had been in months. I promise I’ll let ya’ll know how it goes when I am able to reschedule our meeting.

When I called the local missionary center to let them know that I was going to be out of town the day of scheduled meeting I was told that it is two elders that were to meet with me. Elders? I was under the assumption that they would be sending me younger, less theologically trained missionaries.

Usually the missionaries that knock on my door on Saturday mornings have a ton of scripture verses memorized but have no real working knowledge of their doctrinal systems. How I carry on a conversation with folks depends of their understanding of their own theological system whether it’s my Baptist neighbor or a scientologist looking for Zenu’s mothership.

I’m gonna have to do a bit of research and figure out what exactly the LDS folks mean when they say someone is an elder. With there being a local LDS temple in my area it is entirely within the realm of possibility that that I’ll get to chat with the guys who have temple privileges. If that is the case, our conversation will be a very different one than I had originally envisioned.

What Would You Discuss Over Lunch With The Mormons?

A few weeks ago I ordered the free Finding Happiness dvd produced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I did so because I had seen the commercial for the dvd advertised on an insane number of websites that I visit during the week. I had seen the trailer pop up on every kind of website ranging from comic book news, pop culture and even to some technology sites I frequently visit. The advertising campaign is clearly a broad one and they are really getting big bang for their bucks.

I’d had seen the trailer before last week and even heard a snippit or two on Chris Rosebrough’s program Fighting for the Faith. Seeing the video being advertised over such a broad range of websites definitely piqued my curiosity and I went ahead and ordered it through the online form. That was two weeks ago.

About a week after I placed my order I got a call from two missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormons, asking me if they could drop off my copy of Finding Happiness. Then they asked, like all good missionaries do, “can we talk with you about Jesus?”

Here’s a question for readers of POTF; if you were having lunch with two youthful Mormon missionaries, what would you ask them? How would you handle talking to two kids whose mission it is to deliver a message and record the response? What would you do?

A Daughter of Kobol Gets A Record Deal At Word Distribution

All too often a goodly number of my evangelical friends get frustrated that I really don’t want anything to do with contemporary Christian music. Generally speaking I just can’t stomach what passes itself off as Christian songs as the standard seems to be only an inclusion of the word God or worse yet an illusion to some spirit that is guaranteed make us feel better about the place we have earned by our accepting his (it’s) knock at the door of Americanized Christianity.

If Jesus does happen to make an appearance in CCM, He is regularly cleaned up and polished so we aren’t reminded of all our innumerable sins which our Lord bears as He does his salvific work on the cross. Often in CCM the Lord of heaven and earth who makes footstools of his enemies is turned into some poor shlub we want to have a beer with while watching a football game after brunch at Applebees or worse yet; an eroticized significant other that we want to curl up on the couch with so we can feel him breath on our happy selves. Eeeeww!

But what happens when the music and songs that claim to be Christian offer up a new, improved, and made here in America Jesus? What happens when the Jesus of God’s Word is substituted with a plan B Jesus who is neither eternal nor begotten but rather a creature like you or I whose brother is Satan himself? Is it possible to divide the Jesus of Scripture and His work so that we can have songs that sing of a Jesus that inflicts some kind of bosom burning (sorta like last night’s kielbasa casserole surprise?) and automatically get a pass as something a Christian can or even should sing?

Answers; we run as fast as we can away from a Jesus of our own creation, ditto, and hell no.

Recently on Chris Rosebrough’s radio program, Fighting for the Faith, Chris reported that Marie Osmond is getting a record deal at Word Distribution; a company that focuses on the contemporary Christian music market. What’s the problem with Marie Osmond getting a record deal at a company dedicated to providing CCM to the masses? She is Mormon and therefore not Christian! Marie Osmond’s Jesus is not the Jesus of the Old and New Testament but a creature like us who becomes a god (like we all can be according to Mormon theology; “as god is so can we become” see Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20).

A few “frank facts” on what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, believe about Jesus:

• Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to godhood was first born to heavenly parents: Doctrine and Covenants 93:21
  


• Jesus became a god and reach a great state of understanding through obedience of all universal laws: The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton Hunter pg 51.
  


• The blood of Jesus does not atone for all sins. Murder for instance is not covered as this sin is too grievous to be forgiven: Doctrine of Salvation J.F. Smith Vol. 1, also Mormon Doctrine, Apostle B.R. McConkie 1979, pg 93 (although later on page 669 McConkie says that Jesus only died for Adam’s sin…. Hmm, confusing ain’t it?)

Is this Mormon Jesus the Jesus revealed in Scripture? Is this Mormon Jesus the kind of Jesus that Word Records wishes to promote by signing Marie Osmond? Does Word Distribution really want to hold up a neutered creature who can’t atone for all the sins of the world and that managed to work his way to godhood as something to sing joyfully about?

Answers; No. Apparently yes they do. Ditto.

The only song appropriate for the Mormon’s Jesus is Highway to Hell (and yes, I have heard that song played in during a seeker sensitive church service)

I cringe nearly every time I hear contemporary Christian music as most of what I hear too often sings of so generic a God, Jesus, or Spirit that even a Mormon, even Marie Osmond, could join in and say “see, we believe in that Jesus too!” I just don’t want to sing or listen to songs being sung of a God that can’t be differentiated when placed next to a made in America god of Joseph Smith’s imagination. I’ll be passing on that Jesus thank you very much.

No doubt Word Distribution made a business decision hoping to cash in on Marie Osmond’s recent career revival. Signing Mormons to a Christian record label is well within Word Distribution rights as a business. However, they really should break out the seer stones and try to figure out how well they’ll be doing when even those prefer CCM can only look at their offerings and call it vapid drivel at best or if they are honest; heretical. The writing is already on the wall (or the golden plates of Kobol) where this is all headed.

Ion TV Now Running Advertisements For The Sons Of Kobol

I was watching Ion TV last night and was floored when a commercial for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aired. Taking a play from Rick Warren’s purpose driven playbook, the sons of Kolob are running an advertisement to help folks realize God’s plan for their lives. The Mormon.org website, which features the commercial I saw last night, follows the statement “We all have questions” and seeks to address their visitor’s queries this way:

Why am I? Why am I here? What happens when I die? Explore the purpose of life and discover God’s plan for you through the restored teachings of Jesus Christ. Life’s great questions don't have to go unanswered. You, too, can find answers to your questions

The sad, even if amusing, side of this commercial is that Ion TV started out as a PAX TV. PAX TV was the creation of Lowell W. "Bud" Paxson, who is an outspoken evangelical Christian, as a more wholesome alternative to the “adult” programming of the major TV networks. So what’s the problem with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints running commercials on the former PAX TV, now Ion TV? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, are not Christian!

How can anyone say that Mormons aren’t Christians? It’s easy really once it’s understood that Mormons deny the Triune God as revealed by Scripture, deny that Jesus is God in human flesh, believe that humans can become gods just as their god did, believe that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers, amongst other things that conflict directly with what the historic and catholic church has confessed and taught since Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of God the Father nearly two thousand years ago.

It’s almost depressing that any station founded by an evangelical Christian would run advertising created and paid for a group whose teaching and doctrines are so antithetical to Christ’s church. Seeing the new Mormon commercial makes it clear that Ion TV is definitely not PAX TV. Business is business I guess. It almost makes me wish I tune into the old station with their endless reruns of Who's the Boss?, Designing Women, Mama's Family, and Growing Pains… almost.

Great Post By Mollie Over At Get Religion

The awesomeness that is Mollie Zeigler Hemmingway over at Get Religion has a great piece here on Newsweek’s cover story on gay marriage by senior editor Lisa Miller. Mollie takes Miller out to the proverbial woodshed for her selective and sloppy exegeting of Scripture that qualifies as journalistic malfeasance. What a great read!

I was out of town all last week so I had plenty of time to play on the web. One of the things that have really struck me was the lack of coverage of the opposition to Prop 8 out in California that passed on Election Day. I believe that if the opposition was shown making the speeches that I saw last week while stuck in a hotel room, the amendment would have passed with a majority that

If the rage and venom that was directed, for the most part, at the Mormons would have been directed at any other group, excluding Christians of course, there would have been charges of hate speech. If Christian groups would have spewed half of the vitriol as the opposition, there would have been lawsuits and fire bombings instead of protests outside of churches and vandalism.

Anti Proposition 8 Commercial Starring Mormons

Normally you would never find me defending the Mormons. They’re not Christians and unless I can tie a story into my favorite space opera or the similarities to the Masonic lodge, I just want nothing to do the subject. I have to teach a two or three week class once a year because of so many Latter Day Saints in my little corner of the Haut South and that’s enough for me.

As I was sitting here in the shop trying to get caught up on my podcasts, I nearly fell over in disbelief over the reporting of an anti Prop 8 commercial by Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse on Issues, Etc. Prop 8 defines marriage as a man and a woman and thereby outlawed gay marriage. Prop 8 passed but faces an uphill battle in the courts as the will of the people is often trumped my the courts these days.

The reason I’m flabbergasted is that if this kind of commercial can be run against people who call themselves Christian, the surely the commercial will be run against people who are Christians. It’s only a matter of time.

Here's the commercial:


And here's the Issues, Etc. segment:

New Mormon President Holds Press Conference

The Salt Lake Tribute
Article Last Updated: 02/04/2008 11:52:00 AM MST

Tradition won the day and Thomas Monson, a 44-year veteran of the Mormon hierarchy, became the faith's new president and prophet. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints led by the Quorum of Twelve elected Monson unanimously as expected.

Mormons believe that leaders of their church ascend the hierarchy in a process guided by God. The man (and it's only men because of the patriarchal nature of the religion), whom God permits to serve and survive the longest, becomes the Mormon "prophet, seer and revelator" when the group's president passes. As this is a long standing tradition for the denomination, the transition for one of the fastest growing churches in the world was expected to be a smooth one.

But controversy may be inevitable as rumors swirl around the leadership. In the past few days the church officials have been trying to quell rumors about the infiltration of outsiders into the inner circles of the hierarchy. Last week it was leaked that the Quorum of Twelve actually was comprised of fourteen members. When the two addition members were added and who they are remains a mystery.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a long time church member said that “the Quorum has been infiltrated by “toasters”.” What a “toaster” is remains unclear.

Immediately after assuming the office of Prophet, Thomas Monson held a press conference at Temple Square in Salt Lake City denying any irregularities by emphatically stating “I am not a cylon, and if I find out anyone of the Twelve is a cylon, they will be dealt with in the harshest manner allowed under our laws.” Questions by reporters regarding how a Quorum of Twelve could have fourteen members were ignored.

It is only speculation that a cylon is similar to a “toaster”. Largely a secretive group, the Latter Day Saints have many rituals hidden from those who have not been through a three step process which includes instruction at what is called a Ward, Stake, and finally, the Temple. Because of outsiders not being “brought to light”, proper understanding of rituals and the accompanying terminology has made dialogue with and reporting on Mormons difficult.

The “harshest manner” reference in Monson’s statement can only be assumed to be a shunning that excludes members from temple worship which is the pinnacle of the Mormon faith. Certain Christian denominations have a similar practice called excommunication although it is rarely practiced.

Hinckley Earns His Eternal Reward

Yesterday, thousands of believers were in mourning following the death of Gordon B. Hinckley, the 15th president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Hinckley, considered a prophet among Mormons, was called home to Kobol following complications due to old age.

I too am saddened as this is just one more reminder that season four of BSG wont start for another two months. Very sad indeed.