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Tuesday, July 06, 2010 

Dream Work And The Upcoming Synodical Convention

If… LC-MS Southeastern District spiritual directors are correct and what was taught concerning dream work at a recent prayer and spiritual formation workshop was in fact “reclaiming our ancient heritage going way back, right to the New Testament”, “one way of consciously getting in touch with God’s will for us and cooperating with it” and here to stay so if ya’ll don’t like it “you really ought to consider leaving the Lutheran Church, and joining up with the Fundamentalists; they would be more aligned to your way of seeing things” then…

What does it mean when someone like myself has a dream that has Pr. Matt Harrison holding up a copy of the Reporter, the official newspaper of the LC-MS, after votes have been cast for the election of synodical president with the headline reading Kieschnick Defeats Harrison just the picture we’ve all seen of Harry Truman holding up the Chicago Daily Tribune proclaiming that he’d been defeated by Thomas Dewey contrary to the actual results of the election. What does this mean?

I’m simply not sure what to make of this dream. I know that maybe I should look at this as prophecy of sorts because according to one of the LC-MS’s soul winningest congregation’s time and talent surveys I have two spiritual gifts; the first being discernment and the second… wait for it… prophecy! But to be honest I’m always a little bit uneasy with such stuff even if the congregation who allowed me to take the survey does log more critical events than almost any other. I guess part of my problem is that I’m just not feeling the whole “reclaiming our ancient heritage” thingy nor do I feel any “energy” or an “ah-ha feeling” that I was told to seek in the prayer and spiritual formation workshop concerning dream work.

I also know that very, very smart people who have business degrees have stated that what we need in these uncertain economic times is the unchanging structured leadership of the President Kieschnick while the delegates at the convention contemplate completely changing the LC-MS’s structure governance. In addition, with President Kieschnick’s pledging to his supporters that he will in fact serve another 3 (or 4) year term just confounds me that much more when I think back to the dream. Why would I dream that Pr. Harrison won the election when President Kieschnick has assured folks that this simply will not come to pass?

It is just a dream, isn’t it? Maybe I need to make a call to my SED spiritual director and ask him to help me figure it out since it was he who declared, “A dream unexamined is like a letter unopened.”

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Your an idiot. It’s people like you that prevent the lost from hearing the good news and being saved. Maybe you should find another church, go destroy somebody else’s denomination!

Yeah, Frank, c'mon, get with it. Instead of thoughtful and in-depth critique, we need more childish name-calling from you ("idiot" will do) if we're ever going to get a move on with saving the lost. I've heard that atheists are really attracted to a lack of coherent thought on blog discussions.

I thought I was making progress with reaching out to those folk who think we can receive revelations from dreams! Wasn't I being open minded enough entertaining the idea that my dream might mean something? Apparently not.

"You only have the gift of discernment if you agree with us."



And wow, Frank's a cool guy, but I didn't know that denominational destruction was one of his super-powers.

He's like a theological Death Star! w00t!

Frank is a hero! He has faced criticism for speaking the truth and revealing the unbelievably strange and unsound doctrines that the SED is teaching, as if they were biblical. All this dreams and visions teaching is enough to make a Lutheran wonder what in the world is going on in the districts and synod. Why are they being accepted as the new norm?
Claudia Kuiper

Okay Frank -- tone is everything - if we were having this discussion over a beer or two (in true Lutheran Fashion) I would be able to discern whether you were being sincere or flip.. Since I cannot -- I'll simply state this reads flip. ;-D Daniel interpreted dreams. Joseph dreamed -- and not having been at whatever class it is you are talking about I cannot speak to that. Still you and I both know prophesy (the ability to proclaim the Word) is a true spiritual gift that goes beyond dreaming.. and while dreams may be a part of the gift, I'm thinking (if I know you well enough) THIS dream was just wishful thinking on your part. -- she says snarkily.. and ya'll Frank and I are friends and I'm seriously playing - but seriously speaking. If that makes sense. Our church voted to re-elect K and I'll be thrilled when he wins. (smile)

and if they taught that prophets were fortune tellers -- then yeah, it's bunk. I have that gift myself -- it's just someone who proclaims truth.. not divinations.

ps-- and you like being snarkey -- and I enjoy reading it.. so it's all good. I'm snarky too.. I'm peeved they (conventional beurocrats) had to form a committee to discern whether or not women in LCMS need to stay on the left side of the church and men on the right... or at least discern whether or not haveing a woman touch the sacrements before they are distrubeted scares Christ clean out of the bread and wine.. and that women are too stupid to be presidents of colleges -- oh yeah, get me going on all that bologna and my head spins worse than Linda Blair. oh but to spin would be to go against the neanderthals who think women need to be silent in church -- we'll be silent alright, we'll take our families and our tithes somewhere else. We'll be so silent the church ledgers will bleed red. Snarky red head out. (hugs)

I attend voter's meetings but refuse to vote on matters pertaining to the office of the pastor - membership issues, calls, etc. By choice.

And I tithe, too.

@Elephant's Child? Why don't you vote? Just curious, I mean God gave us all wisdom and discernment -- He speaks through us as well.. we have the same Holy Spirit, don't we? To withhold our God given voice seems poor stewardship to me.

Who knew that women, for generations, were all poor stewards and had no voice at all in their churches, simply because they did not demand certain bureaucratic church "rights" due to theological implications that troubled their consciences?

Yes, I'd go easier on our foremothers and beg to differ. I'd also beg to differ that I personally have the authority to wrest my family from a church and transplant them just because it doesn't change its theology and practice to suit my personal tastes.

Deana and are in fact friends in spite of the fact that we differ on more than one or two issues of the day. She and I may have gotten off to a bad start but I really like what she has to say on the issues we do agree on. Also, she’s just as snarky as me!

It turns out that she grew up less than ten miles from the orphanarium so I’m thinking she’s the girl that used to beat me up when I went to the lake back in the day. I still like like the chick, a lot.

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Deana -

I do vote on things like new window for the parsonage or whether we should pave the church parking lot

In the NT, all of Christ's disciples are male. Jesus is male. Paul is male. In 1 Tim 3, it says that overseers and deacons are to be husbands of one wife, indicating that they are male.

But BEYOND THAT: The pastor - and by extension, the work of the pastor's position or office- represents Christ's voice to the people. A pastor and the work he does act as shepherd to his flock in a similar way that Christ is shepherd to the whole of the Christian church. This is why sometimes people refer to a pastor as an "under-shepherd."

The end of Ephesians 5 describes how a husband pictures Christ and a wife pictures the church, Christ's bride. This imagery is in Revelations as well.

So if marriage pictures the relationship between Christ and his church every thing that pictures Christ should be male. Christ is the Groom. Pastor's work - all that he does to care for souls - falls under his calling as an under-shepherd of Christ. Saying that women can do any of the work that falls under the category of a pastor's job is to set up a picture of a female groomsman. But Christ is male. If you saw Him naked in heaven he'd have a wee-wee.

So I don't do the work of a pastor. Besides the fact that it goes against every instance in the Bible of church leadership, I don't like the picture of the heavenly groom of the church with boobs. Giving the wine at communion doesn't have to do with "scaring the Christ" right out, but with the imagery of Christ's MALE blood poured out for us.

Sorry for the double post (now deleted) Blogger told me my first post didn't post, but apparently it had.

Deana, I was just having fun with this. The class I attended really was teaching mysticism that couldn’t be held accountable as it focused on “energy” or an “ah-ha feeling” (two quotes from the class) and not on any clear teaching from Scripture. It’s true that there are folks in Scripture that received divine revelations from dreams but Scripture does not give a promise that dreams are a means by which God communicates with us. The dreams that give revelations from God that are recorded in the Bible are for specific people in a specific time and not necessarily for us. I’m not saying that the Lord can’t speak to us in dreams (He certainly can if He wants to!) but there certainly isn’t any promise to do so to all the church as was implied in the workshop.

Okay -- blogger totally ate my response. Sorry I offended your friends - thanks for sticking up for me. Yep, I'm from upstate ny and we are born snarky -- Living in Rattle Snake Gulch can do that to ya. you weren't supposed to tell them about the orphanage. laugh. Everyone's head spins over different issues -- mine is spinning over the whole "no female presidents allowed in our colleges." how many federal laws does that break? well it's a private instition so technically none - just like the fact that the last pastor I worked for called me the office bastard and a whore on a regular basis and he could because the church isn't accountable to workplace laws, but it should be. so yeah, I get snarky. great post frank - I totally get how teaching on spiritual gifts can get really out of hand.

Deana, everybody knows I was raised at the orphanarium, that’s no secret ‘round here. I’m serious when I say that I think you’re the kid that used to torment me at Sylvan Beach. I’m sure I deserved it but still…

We all approach things from our own unique perspectives and this is the case in theological matters. My own ax to grind, if it’s not apparent, is the poor level of catechesis of both youth and adults in today’s churches. The reason is that my lack of catechesis combined with what I know recognize as mysticism from my first church. This is why I despise many of the goofy things that the LCMS is trying to do in the name of outreach. In my neck of the woods folk seem more concerned with looking like the culture than they do a church even while using churchish language. As I said, that’s my ax to grind.

Now let me come to the defense of my other two snarky friends. I think that it would be safe to say that it’s really hard to offend either Kelly or Elephantschild. They are both great gals who’ve I’ve gotten to know pretty well and I think you’d like ‘em both if you got to know them. Like you and I, they of course bring their own perspectives to the table. Give ‘em a shot, hear ‘em out, and I think you’ll like ‘em both as much as I do

It's interesting to me when I speak of roles and people think I used the word "rights" -- would never do that. My favorite book at the moment on Godly submission is written by Christian Author P.Bunny Wilson. She is an amazing woman of God and writes and speaks with great clarity. I like her a lot. And submission and silence aren't the same thing --


Work place laws do apply to that kind of treatment. There have been plenty of cases of sexual harassment in the workplace in nonprofit environments. There's no theological reason for your boss to have the right to call you a bastard or a whore.

As far as university presidents go, I have no problem with males holding that role, because the president does determine the theological direction of the university to a great extent. If it were ONLY a kingdom of the left issue, I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, What Hillsdale College and others have shown us, the fact that we collect Federal Loan money for our universities and seminaries have a strong ability to come back and bite us in the butt, because the government HAS applied equal opportunity laws to ANY school that collects federal funds, including simply accepting federal loans.

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